Lola Reid Allin
Lola Reid Allin
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Show notes
In this interview with Canadian pilot Lola Reid Allin, we talk about her new memoir, Highway to the Sky: An Aviator’s Journey, launching on September 17th, 2024.
The blurb:
With females making up just 5% of the world’s pilots, this memoir crosses genres to combine aviation history, the author’s journey from unwanted child to successful pilot, and the feminist experience, and will appeal to multiple aviation communities.
“Don’t be silly! Girls can’t fly,” seven-year-old Lola’s father admonishes her as they fly across Canada on a commercial flight in 1962. She is crushed—but decides he must be right. She’s only ever seen male pilots, after all. Highway to the Sky begins during the empty zone of women in aviation, a three-decade drought following WWII when men reclaimed the jobs that had been performed by women during the war and forced women back to diapers and dishes, where they “belonged.”
Despite Lola’s childhood desire to avoid the straitjacket of traditional female roles and become a pilot, her desperate need for unconditional affection after a lonesome childhood sways her determination. At age twenty, she leaps into marriage and motherhood.
Four years, one toxic relationship, and one private pilot license later, she leaves her husband, even though she knows she’ll be censured by friends, family, and 1970s society at large. Lola’s head-on battle with tradition continues as the lone female pilot in her advanced flight training program and on the job as a flight instructor, bush pilot, charter pilot, and commuter airline pilot between 1979 and 1993.
Flying is challenging at times, yes—but her true obstacles are the hostility, sabotage, and discrimination she faces in her industry. She perseveres, however.
Transcript:
Liz Booker (00:00)
Hello and welcome. I’m Liz Booker, Literary Aviatrix, and I’m excited to celebrate the launch of a new memoir, Highway to the Sky, An Aviator’s Journey, by Lola Reid Allin
Lola Reid Allin, welcome.
Lola Reid Allin (00:47)
you so much. I’m so delighted to be here. I appreciate your interest in my book and aviation.
Liz Booker (00:55)
Well, of course, I’m interested in aviation in your book, especially as a pretty regular participant in the Aviatrix Book Club. We’ve heard about this book for a few years. I’m so excited for you that you’re finally at the point of launching this story. Congratulations. Would you give us a synopsis of the book and maybe do a reading?
Lola Reid Allin (01:17)
I’d be delighted. Well, spoiler alert, it’s about aviation, but it’s specifically about women in aviation. And of course it’s specifically about me. It is a memoir. It’s about my journey to become a commercial pilot in Canada, and that is to fly and earn my living as a commercial pilot in Canada. And it starts…early in my life, just briefly, and my desire to fly, and I express this as a seven -year my parents when we’re on a flight from Toronto to Regina via Winnipeg, because in 1962 there was no such thing as a non -stop flight from Toronto to Regina. So we flew tuber props, we flew through thunderstorms.
But I thought this was pretty exciting as a child, right? I didn’t know all the things that might go wrong. But at any rate, I expressed to my father, I wanna be a pilot when I grow up. And he said something along the lines of, don’t be silly, girls don’t fly. And as time went on, I really bought into that, girls don’t fly, I didn’t see any pilots. And my parents had their own personal problems. Certainly it was a dysfunctional family, although there is a famous author who said, any family with more than one person is dysfunctional. Probably true, but they were clearly dysfunctional. At any rate, I grew up, I got married, I kind of fulfilled everybody’s expectations of what women should do in the 70s and 80s, and I’m saying, I think even now, got married, I had a child, and I had a husband who was a bully and an alcoholic, but he also loved me and he was super supportive and really exciting.
Liz Booker (02:34)
Hahaha.
Lola Reid Allin (02:59)
One day he came home and said, let’s take flying lessons. By this time, I thought he was crazy, but we did. The very first day at the airport, was two days after he, sorry, one day after he came home and announced, let’s go flying. Everyone at the airport, including our three -year -old son was male, everyone. There weren’t even female office workers. Everyone was male. But that didn’t stop me after about four lessons, including the rather terrifying first flight, I decided that was it. I liked my job at the bank, but it wasn’t inspiring. And eventually I quit my job, left my husband, and started a career in commercial aviation and was one of the first pilots commercially employed in Canada.
Liz Booker (03:46)
Wow. And how about that reading?
Lola Reid Allin (03:49)
All right. So because the book has, it is about women in aviation, obviously specifically me, but it’s also a portrait of women’s issues from about the 1970s until now. So the first chapter is dedicated to one of my students, Ode to Joy. Help me, Lola! The volume and pitch of Joy’s usually velvet voice increases with each word. Feels like an ice pick puncturing my eardrum. Please!
Take control! We’re nearing the end of Joy’s first flight lesson with me, and now we’re above the runway on final approach, seconds from touchdown. I adjust my prescription ray bands, massage my temples, and say, relax. The approach looks perfect. Besides, ha ha ha, I force a laugh. I don’t plan to crash and burn today. My student’s left hand chokes the Cessna 152’s control column on her side of the plane.
15 feet above the runway, I place my hands on my knees, inching them closer to the U -shaped steering control on my side of the plane. reduces engine power to slightly more than idle. Sometimes, although a student has set up the landing approach perfectly, a gust of wind might toss the plane up, down, or sideways. If this happens, a too hard touchdown might occur, or the slightest wrong movement might cause the plane to land on the delicate nose wheel instead of the two main wheels.
This might cause the nose wheel to break. With any student, anything could happen. But Joy’s previous instructors have told me about her bad landings. I’m especially vigilant. The plane smacks onto the runway. My back buckles with the impact. Though aircraft manufacturers design sturdy main wheel struts to splay and minimize damage by student pilots like Joy, the plane bounces 10 feet into the air. My stomach stays behind.
After the bounce that shoots us back into the air, the aircraft begins an extended wave -like rollercoaster flight path, oscillating closer and closer to the runway as the airspeed decreases in preparation for landing. Similar to an S -shaped sine wave, this movement will continue unless one of us increases engine RPM and airspeed. But if one of us doesn’t act and then in the next 10 seconds, the touchdown will be a smackdown. Help me! Joy’s screech pierces my ear.
I say add 300 RPM.
We land, I lose count after three bounces, each tossing us back into the air, but with a decreasing height. Joy reduces power to 1200 RPM. Her final touchdown is smooth. The two main wheels rolling along the runway, she reduces power to idle. The Cessna slows gradually, the fragile nose wheel free falls gently onto the pavement. So I’m just gonna move forward a couple pages and give you some background.
Three days earlier, the chief flying instructor had shut the door to our shared office, then confided, I’ve had two flights with Joy. She has 20 plus hours, but still can’t land the plane. I twisted a strand of my shoulder length hair and sighed heavily. That’s the When I suggested she take lessons with you, she agreed. I blew air through my lips. Mark told me she had no interest in flying with me. Her rebuff had stung.
I’m the most experienced pilot at this school. I’m the assistant chief instructor and my six years of training students and flying as a commercial pilot. She was the first person, male or female, pilot or passenger, who had refused to fly with me. Martin said, maybe desperation changed her mind. He clasped his hands together on his desk and twirled his thumb in a circle. Why does she want to fly anyway?
I bristled, why shouldn’t she learn to fly?
She’s 56. Makes as much sense as my mother learning to fly. And I said, why shouldn’t either of them learn to fly? He twisted his lips. She has a life most women dream about, a loving husband, four great kids, a beautiful home. Why should she want to be a pilot?
and you’ll have to read the rest of the story.
Liz Booker (07:54)
Aha. Yes, we will. So I’ve had the pleasure of having a sneak peek at this book. So I know where it goes from there. And one of the things so first of all, let me gush about the book. It is beautifully written. I was so excited to see that from you. I was making notes as I was reading about, your twist, turn a phrase and the language that you use to describe things. It’s definitely something to aspire to. And I can’t wait to talk.
more about that. It’s also very well beautifully polished, cleanly edited. So it turned out to be a beautiful book. Congratulations on that. Yeah, no, it’s beautiful. And I’m so happy for you. And again, we’ll talk more about that in the writing portion of our conversation. But also something that you said in your introduction you know, this being about issues for women in the 70s and to today.
Lola Reid Allin (08:31)
Thank you so much.
Liz Booker (08:48)
You you mentioned that your husband was a quote unquote bully. I myself found myself in a relationship like that in my first marriage. And I know that many women today are still facing those issues, even though we like to think that times have changed. And they have, but women still find themselves in oppressive relationships. And I think that one of the things that this book will do is sort of maybe give them a role model for how to maybe move their life forward and get out of that situation. So it’s a beautiful book and I can’t wait to talk more about it. But before we do, this book is, as you said, a memoir. So it only covers a certain portion of your flying experience. It’s the very beginning. But let’s hear more about where that career went. Tell me about your aviation life.
Lola Reid Allin (09:42)
In the 1980s, it was reasonably easy to get a few firsts, know, first female whatever, because there were very few female pilots flying. Interestingly enough, there were about 6 % of female commercial pilots flying commercially in the 1980s, and that number has remained stagnant. But with respect to my own personal career,
I was the first female chief flying instructor at the Waterloo Wellington Flight Centre, the first female chief flying instructor at the Van der Hoof Airport in British Columbia, which is the central interior of British Columbia. And if you looked on the line of the map, after I accepted the job, I was astonished to find that the line of latitude went right over into the centre of Hudson Bay. And I went, whoa, that’s way far north.
But it was great. I got a lot of mountain experience there. I also flew in Northern Ontario, know, Navajos, Aztecs, Twin Waders. And later I worked at De Havilland Flight Safety in Toronto and I was the first female instructor or lead on the Twin Otter Dash 6 training program. and I was also the first flying a Twin Otter DHC -300 series on a scheduled service airline. And it was pretty lonely. I think you could almost insert only. In fact, you could insert only, replace first with only.
And of course, in the 80s and 90s, we didn’t have cell phones. Yes, I could have written a letter, let’s say, to the 99s in Oklahoma asking for emotional support. But, you know, phones, we didn’t carry cell phones. didn’t have cell phones. Telephone calls were very expensive and letters were very greatly delayed. So it was like being isolated. And yeah, I mean, had some great, great colleagues.
I also of course had some who were less than happy to have a female flying with them.
Liz Booker (11:55)
Yeah, and you talk about some of that in the book. And so what did that arc, what did your career arc look like? Like how long were you actively flying? And then what made you decide, you know, whenever I assume that you’re not flying professionally anymore. So what, how did that come to a close for
Lola Reid Allin (12:13)
biggest issue for me was wearing glasses. So now that’s no longer an issue, unless of course your vision is 220 and you’re considered legally blind. But that was a big issue. The laser surgery was revolutionary and I did know a couple of people who had had it successfully done. But my eyesight wasn’t bad, it was 2040. That’s really not so bad, but it still wasn’t acceptable.
And that’s changed now because most training or most of the training is done on a simulator rather than on the real aircraft. So it’s much less costly. So that has changed. Plus we, the laser surgery is much, much better these days. So that was a real sticking point for me, no matter how much I wished to fly for Air Canada or a corporate jet, it just wasn’t going to happen. It’s sort of like wanting to be a ballerina and
I think I’m an average weight and height, but I’m just not ballerina material. And so that was a big issue for me. So I actually went back to university and I was when I was the chief instructor at Waterloo, Wellington Flight Centre, which was then called the Flying Club. I was also finishing my degree at the University of Waterloo. And just as a plug for both,
They now have a joint training program, which is awesome. So you can get a four -year degree at the university in anything, not specifically aviation -related subjects, and graduate from the Waterloo -Wellington Flight Center with all your ratings, which is pretty impressive. Yeah, so sorry. So then I went to De Havilland Flight Safety, which was in essence a non -flying position. It was with simulators.
But I was getting a little frustrated, but I thought, you know what, a change of scenery, I’m gonna go, I love the Twin Otter, love the Dash 8, I’m gonna go out west to British Columbia, I’m gonna fly with AirBC. And right about that time, my mother had a heart attack and died and left me with a house, and all my furniture in it, because remember I was going out west to British Columbia and I live in Ontario.
That’s all stuff. But my grandmother had just lost, she was recently widowed and then she just lost her only child. So she was pretty freaked out as you can imagine. So I stuck around here for a bit, my hometown, I taught for a little bit. And then I believe in looking at challenges as opportunities. I went on a scuba diving trip with the local scuba club and after three days I turned to my best friend.
Judy and said, that’s it, I’m moving here. I’m going to get a job as a dive master and I’m going to live here. Nine months later, I did. And I was working as a dive master and a scuba dive shop manager. But the real reason for me moving was to fulfill another dream of mine, which was to work and live with the Maya of Mesoamerica, which would be Mexico’s Yucatan, Chiapas, and then Belize, Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador.
So I have minimal experience with those last two and extensive experience with Belize and Mexico and Guatemala. And I still go back frequently. And that’s the topic of my next.
Liz Booker (15:41)
Gosh, I can’t wait for that and I can’t wait to talk more about that. That’s incredible. Well, now that we’ve kind of talked about what your career looked like or what your life looked like and I have more questions about that later, let’s get back to the book. So why did you want to write this book and publish it?
Lola Reid Allin (16:01)
Well…exactly as you said, to inspire people, to be a role model, to let them know that the stuff that they’re putting up with now, even though they have more resources to cope with it, is the stuff I put up with in the 70s and the 80s. And I was astonished to learn this. So I mentioned traveling to Mexico. I lived in Mexico for three years, but subsequent to that, I would travel to Mexico and Belize.
And most times there wasn’t a non -stop flight from Toronto to those countries. I could go, yes, Toronto non -stop to Cancun and then take a bus, and I sometimes did. But more typically, I flew to an American hub, Miami, Houston, or Atlanta. And I always saw lots of female pilots. was like, yes, this is great. They were all first officers, but first officers for major air careers, and you have to start somewhere. I get it. I was really excited. Then in 2014,
And I also assumed that things were great because now there was Facebook, you you could talk to someone instantly, everybody had cell phones. I assumed that because I’d seen so many that the numbers had increased. And I was right, the numbers had increased, but the percentage remained the same and in fact actually slumped from the 1980s. So in the 1970s and 80s, there was a lot of propaganda that said, you know, you’ve come a long way, baby. That was a cigarette commercial.
You can do anything you want, Jorraine Greer, know, the Feminine Mystique. And then I saw…
This Facebook posting, my husband drew it to my attention. So I’ll read it first and then just show you. It was, I’ll show you, there it is. It’s a napkin, WestJet napkin. So WestJet is a major Canadian air carrier in the West. To Captain of WestJet, the cockpit of an airliner is no place for a woman. A woman being a mother is the most honorable, not as captain. We’re short mothers, not pilots.
Lola Reid Allin (18:03)
Wish West Jet could tell me a fair lady is at the helm so I can book another flight. 2014. 2014. I couldn’t believe it. I thought I need to start taking action. I’m no longer flying commercially. I still have a license, but I’m no longer flying commercially. But what I can do, I can do public presentations. I can do presentations at libraries, at schools, and I do.
Lola Reid Allin (18:30)
I’ll talk to anyone who listens, I’ll do these interviews. But the attitude still continues and it’s subtle. I mean, there are some people who are just genuinely astonished, others who are astonished and not very happy. But this past June at Trenton, Ontario, they had the Quinty International Air Show. Trenton is the largest Air Force base in Canada.
The royalty come from England, now our king, he will land at Trenton. So it was a bigger show. had Frecci di Colore from Italy, had people from aviators from America. It was a great show. And the 99s, the International Organization of Women Pilots had a booth. I was there talking with three other women who we were promoting. We had banners, we had handouts.
All of it said, 99’s International Organization of Women Pilots. And guess what the most common question was? Are you pilot?
Wow, it was shocking. And so we then had to explain that we weren’t all flying for Air Canada, but we had different degrees of accomplishment and interests in aviation. It was still surprising, and it was for men and women. So there’s still that disjoint from, there’s still that idea that a pilot should be male and that men make better pilots for whatever reason.
And let me tell you, and Liz, I’m sure the helicopter thinks the same way, the helicopter does not know whose hands are on the controls.
Liz Booker (20:13)
Exactly right. Exactly right. So many things packed in that it just that little segment right there. So first of all, the napkin. So I want you to know that I make a habit now of writing anytime there is a female in the cockpit on the flight deck is how they say it now is I write them a note and I say something happy to them so that they know that we appreciate them being up there and and I encourage them. Yeah.
Lola Reid Allin (20:39)
Great idea. Can I steal it? Absolutely. Sorry, I didn’t think about it.
Liz Booker (20:41)
Of course, you should, you should, absolutely. Yeah, and I’ll send up a bookmark if I have it so that they can connect with me. But those nasty notes and like questions like that, you know, it would have been great. It would be a great opportunity. You always think about things that you could say to or retort to comments like that. You and I share in common, and this is a topic that I wanted to talk about. We share in common a few things.
One, having a child in a relationship that was abusive and having to get out of it and navigate your life with the background of dealing with a child in the most loving way, the best way that you could so that they could maintain a relationship with their father and so that you could achieve the things that you wanted to achieve. It was a challenge for me and you very clearly articulate those challenges for yourself with a lot of emotion, maternal emotion.
So you and I both started flying after we were mothers, we hear a lot of this garbage about how you can’t do both, which doesn’t make any sense at all. Because you can go do any other career and have children, but apparently people have this preconceived notion that you can’t be a pilot and have children. So this is a theme that I really appreciated in your book, because this is a situation that I think a lot of women do find themselves in. In fact, I highlighted one of these women that we met at Sun and Fun a couple of years ago in a 99s magazine article who completely just upended her life with the encouragement of the 99s. And yeah, at 36 with children and finally got to pursue her dream of flying.
It’s a wonderful testament to the supportive nature of our community, the 99s, when you have the opportunity to be surrounded by supportive people, the things that you’re talking about doing, doing this outreach. I also wanted to mention, you know, I focus a lot of my outreach on youth events, mostly targeting girls. So when I walk in with a table full of books,
I’m surrounded by people who are like -minded and interested, but I did find… I worked the Women in Aviation International booth and the 99s booth at Sun and Fun last spring. And I really was kind of taken aback by some of the responses of the men. well, I mean, I started a lovely conversation with a couple of men. I thought it was started off lovely.
Lola Reid Allin (23:20)
Tell me more.
Liz Booker (23:29)
They were kind of, you know, bush pilots and, worked on their own planes and we were having a nice conversation. And I mentioned that next this September, which is next month, we were going to read a great, exciting book by a woman named Kitty Banner called Wings of Her Dreams, who flew, glacial glacier flying, all kinds of flying in Alaska. She’s very well known and well respected.
And one of the guys said, yeah, that’s fiction. Yeah. I mean, that’s just one example of the encounters I have. And I just was kind of like, you know what? I’m not here for you. Move along. I just said, have a nice day. Cause I was representing WAI at the time. And so I couldn’t tell them what I really thought. I was like, you guys have a nice day. And I just turned and tracked the next female that was walking down the aisle.
Lola Reid Allin (24:05)
Whoa.
So did they think it was that she was not? wow. Wow.
Liz Booker (24:26)
no, no, no, no, no, no. That was very deliberate. And my radar is pretty good now. So I know when people are speaking out of ignorance or who are trying to be jerks. So yeah, I was just like, move on. But this was this spring. So we’re still dealing with these attitudes and the garbage. And so a book like yours is as relevant today, even though it was set in the 70s. And you do very much focus on the attitudes of the culture at the time, but we’re still dealing with it right now.
Lola Reid Allin (24:59)
We are. I then that attitude was actually legitimate. I mean, there was an issue that I discussed in the book where I came to my former matrimonial home and my husband had a very, we really had a good relationship. He was just more of a bully, but I sensed that something was wrong. And in fact, he did.
He did attack me at that time and it was the only time he ever did. I’d left him, he was upset. It doesn’t justify it. But when I went for help to the police, they could not come in the house. I worked out a pretty brilliant solution to get back in the house and have them help me without coming into the house.
And they said, we can’t because even though you own the house 50 -50, joint tenants, you, the woman, are basically a lesser citizen and the home is the husband’s castle. And that was changed in 1980 in Ontario, but that’s an example of legitimate power. They couldn’t disregard that law. So the laws have changed and there are issues though. So for example, if you were flying for a major air carrier,
Liz Booker (26:14)
Yeah.
Lola Reid Allin (26:22)
you’re going to have a flight decked out, a recorder, a voice recorder. But if you’re flying for a smaller regional carrier, it’s not, you don’t need to have one, I think if it’s 20 passengers or less, or fewer, and it’s you and the male captain, I mean, and it’s going to be he said, she said, and likely, but not always, likely the supervisor would side with the senior captain, at least the first time, because it’s going to be he said, she said. So if you have a few more incidences with male or female co -pilots, after a while, yes, you have to start listening.
But it’s very often he said, she said, and who’s going to do that? Or often the person you’re reporting to, that you would report an incident to, is the person who’s the perpetrator. So there are some difficulties. And I know I did, as part of my studies for this book,
I enrolled at the University of Toronto in Ontario, Canada. And one of the things I did was a very small survey of women flying today. And because it was, you know, under the umbrella of the University of Toronto, everyone was very willing to help, first names only. And I knew who they were and I know where they worked in their ages and how long they’d been working. And they were great. They answered all the questions.
There was a series of true false, multiple choice, open -ended, you know, in case I’d forgotten something or open -ended without being leading, the question being leading, and that was all good. But then when I wanted to publish it, of course I had to go, I wanted to go back to them and get their impression or their and their permission and they said, one of them refused totally. She said, no, you know, no, no, do not publish this. Others said, yes, as long as you can disguise me completely.
and it was ultimately published as a five -part article in Skies magazine. But these are women currently flying today who were afraid that the specifics would be read by their co -workers, their colleagues, their supervisors, and they would have some form of retribution. It could be perhaps not being scheduled as much, being fired. At home, of course, it’s a different thing. You know, you could…
If you speak against your husband or partner, you might face possible death, right? Broken bones, if they’re very violent. My husband was more a bully, and I do want to emphasize that. It wasn’t like he came home every day and beat up on me. He didn’t. He was a great man, a great father, and in fact, a superlative father. I couldn’t have done the joint custody without him. He was great. In fact, his career when I met him was teaching little children how to ski.
He was great. But he had some issues and alcohol, of course, brought that out in them. But these are issues that women are still facing today. So I wanted to bring that out mostly because my husband drank before we got married. But to me, an alcoholic was someone who, you know, was laying flat on the ground at 8 a on a Sunday morning or, you know, stumbling out of a bar at midnight. Those were alcoholics.
Liz Booker (29:22)
Yeah.
Lola Reid Allin (29:42)
And I know that when he did eventually go to AA and I remember when he came home, he said, you won’t believe who’s at AA. And of course he couldn’t tell me because that’s part of the culture. You can’t say, know, the mayor, he was at AA. But he said, you won’t believe it. It’s not just, you know, impoverished or whatever, you know, it didn’t jive at all with my concept of who might be an
Liz Booker (29:52)
You
Yeah.
Lola Reid Allin (30:12)
These were fine, upstanding business people in the community and various professions.
Liz Booker (30:18)
Well, there’s again so much in the things that you just talked about. going back to your comment about the law and the structures that kept police from coming into your home and therefore you had to get creative and be like, well, if you would just stand on the porch so that I can go in and be safe, which was brilliant on your part, by the way. But if we fast forward, well, but you at least
Lola Reid Allin (30:44)
Desperate.
Liz Booker (30:47)
I’m glad for you that it worked out the way that it did. Because you can fast forward to stories like Erica Armstrong’s A Chick in the Cockpit where she got into a really terrible situation legally because, and not because of the law, but because of biases, really, in, the attitudes of law enforcement around domestic abuse. you know, these things still go on.
And then you talked about the power structure of aviation itself. is like the pilot in command is the pilot in command. And I don’t know what the cultures are like in the airlines now, but I do still see some baloney being posted in our Facebook groups, like you mentioned with this passenger, but even in the professional environment.
And so, know, as long, until we have a critical mass, you know, a more balanced representation in aviation, this culture change is going to be very slow. And so people are still gonna deal with these I would love to hear you talk a little bit about, in the book you kind of talk about this evolution of your training. You’re gonna talk about sort of that training path as much as you want to out of the book.
And then I also want to talk about, I want to hear from you a little bit about how managing your child and making these decisions, you convey that very well in the book, but talk a little bit about those things.
Lola Reid Allin (32:18)
Yeah, well, I started at one school in southern Ontario, which by the way is further south than the border between California and Oregon. So I was quite far south and I learned to navigate in this area with roads and rivers and Lake Huron, Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, the North Shore, obviously. But then my husband and I went on holidays. We went up to the…
cottage and we kind of vowed that we wouldn’t go flying. We’d take a two week vacation, no flying. Things were going well for both of us personally, professionally and in terms of learning to fly. We were both taking lessons and he was great too. I’d go flying and he’d spend time in the sandbox or reading with our son and then vice versa. We’d flip flop and but then of course we had to drive past the Muskoka Airport to get to our our cottage, our family cottage.
So we thought, we’ll just pop in. So we popped in and of course the next day I’m back flying, this time a Piper Cherokee, a PA -28. So I went from a CESTA 150 at one school to a PA -28 in a different school. And of course it was not quite like learning all over again, but it was great experience. I had a new environment. Now I was navigating by rivers, tiny little roads and villages great tracks of forest and not too many villages. So it was a great learning experience. I had a very colorful instructor there. I won’t give that one away, but I was one of his first students. And he was good. He was a good instructor, but he had some colorful background and some probably unethical behavior and unusual training style.
At any rate, I did my flight test at Borden, which is the Canadian Forces -based Borden. That was interesting in itself. And from then on, was still working at the Bank of Commerce in Toronto at Commerce Court. And I had the opportunity every weekend to go to other schools, flight schools, and see where I wanted to go, where I wanted to take my commercial license, and then an instructor rating my multi -IFR. So I gradually worked on it.
I forgot. While we were in Muskoka, we bought an airplane, a small Cessna 150. I finished my training on that and flew at home, which was amazing. So on the day of my flight test, I got up early, flew from Muskoka to Borden, did a flight test. The weather was crappy to begin with to get to Borden, and then the weather was just stunningly beautiful.
Did the flight test and then I flew home to the London, Ontario area and it was spectacular and I went to various schools and I picked Waterloo because they had two female instructors and I was like, wow, this is great. By the time I got there the next month, they’d both gone, but I still had a great experience. It was wonderful. And then at the first place I worked, I got my multi IFR.
And here’s where things started to change a little bit for me the person in charge used a little bit of coercive power, which would be, now you know what you need to do to become a charter pilot, which was sleep with And he also used reward power, which is, if you sleep with me, I’ll make you a charter pilot. I didn’t. And I soon left. And his behavior, actually, that was almost acceptable compared to what he did next. So I had no choice but to leave that place and that’s when I went out to British Columbia.
And that was great experience. Then I moved back to Northern Ontario when I just applied for a job as a pilot on the Navajo and I did that and then I got promoted to the Twin Honor. It was great. So lots of diverse experience, lots of different instructors. I still would probably do it that way rather than staying at the same school, but I will tell you,
It was a very expensive way to do it, to change planes and change schools, but it was worth it. And then I did also my instructor rating at the Waterloo Airport as well, and that was great.
Liz Booker (36:31)
And in the background this whole time, you’re trying to figure out how to structure your life so that you can continue pursuing this, have enough money to pursue it, and also support yourself now that you’re separated from your husband. So talk a little bit about that and providing structure for your son.
Lola Reid Allin (36:50)
Well, after we separated, he got the house. We had a very agreeable separation. We went to the lawyer together to the astonishment of the lawyer. He was a friend of ours, but he didn’t expect both of us to come. So to the visit, or all three of us had to come. Our son came too. He was three. Paul was very helpful.
He got the house because he had a more flexible job and he was off every weekend. So we also felt that if our son could stay in the matrimonial home, it would be less traumatic for him. I still support that decision. I had an apartment. I’ve always been pretty good at logistics and certainly tried my skills out to the max, working things out.
It got a little difficult at the beginning because Paul, at that point then did get a bit ornery and kept trying to get us back together. Anyway, he ultimately gave up he was very supportive. Neither of us really needed the money. We’d made a bunch of good financial decisions in terms of purchasing real estate. We paid cash for the airplane. Again, this is in 1979, but we paid cash for the airplane. I sold it to finance my instructor rating and then got a grant for the multi IFR.
But it got so it was very flexible. At first, my husband would have our son say all year except for all holidays. So weekends or long weekends and all summer. And then we would flip flop the next year. That worked fairly well until he got to be maybe grade four or five. That’s hard to flip flop after that. So then he did stay with his dad who had remarried and he remarried a woman so wonderful.
If I’d been advertising and interviewing for a nanny, she would have got the job. She was just fabulous. She made both our lives, or all three of our lives easier, I guess. She was lovely.
Liz Booker (38:47)
that’s sweet.
And if you don’t mind me asking, looking back, does your son have any reflections of this or how did it all work out for you guys?
Lola Reid Allin (39:03)
He remained good friends with both of us, really. mean, you know, parents, his dad moved to Florida. Both my husband’s second and third wives lived in America and were American. So he spent most of his life after me in America, bouncing back and forth as well.
He didn’t want to learn to fly.
Liz Booker (39:26)
Yeah, well, I’m failing two out of three so far, so let’s see what happens with the third one.
Lola Reid Allin (39:33)
Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? We were encouraging, but every time I took him flying or his dad took him flying, he was, I mean, he would go, but no interest whatsoever. He was interested in art and becoming an artist.
Liz Booker (39:51)
Wow, well that’s cool. Good for him.
So in addition to all of this flying history that you have, you also have all these other interests. You mentioned earlier that your next book is going to be about living in Mexico. I see you out in the world doing travel presentations. Tell us a little bit about that part of your life. You’re a very adventurous woman, and I find you to be an inspiration in many ways. So tell us a little bit about that.
Lola Reid Allin (40:19)
Well, thank you. I think if you can survive domestic abuse, whether it’s mostly bullying, and if you can survive working in a hostile environment, because that’s really what it was, it was hostile. Yes, there were some supportive colleagues, but it got to the point where one in particular who was always watching me, always judging me, and that kind of attitude or environment creates and fosters that imposter syndrome, right?
I mean, if you’re always judged, men eventually, men have the imposter syndrome too, but after a while, you know, they’re not judged as intently and continuously. They don’t have, typically don’t have or retain that feeling of, do I really deserve to be here? But it got to the point where I really hated going to work. I guess I have one more thing to say about home care or childcare.
I was also very fortunate to find a teenage girl who was about 17, completely dependable who would come and stay overnight when I was on overnighters. And after a while, since she wasn’t the best cook, she said, do you suppose I could take your son home with me to my mom and dad and he can stay with mom and dad? So was like he got this next set of grandparents. It was amazing. I mean, forever indebted to her and to my husband too for encouraging me to become a pilot.
That’s very important to me because he wasn’t a bad man at all. He’d lost his way, but he was not a bad man. Nevertheless, if you can survive that kind of hostile environment at home and in the workplace, it sets you up for almost anything, right? So I had no problem moving to Mexico, going to tiny little villages after I learned Spanish, and introducing myself, because most Maya men will know Spanish, that is if they live in Guatemala or Mexico.
Most Maya men will learn English if they live in Belize. Until 1981, Belize was British Honduras. So that’s still one of their official languages. So I would go into the smaller areas, the very rural, tiny little villages. For example, the Lacandon in Chapas, Mexico, Todos Santos Cuchamatanes in the Western Highlands of Guatemala. Both of those speak Spanish as a first language, and then in southwestern Belize with the Mopan and Kekchi Maya. And I would live actually in their homes, which is a little different. A lot of researchers, most researchers prefer to stay in the village, but stay in a home of their own. And the first village I went to was the small village in southwestern Belize because I spoke English as a first language.
And they said, sure, you can stay here. We’ve got a little guest cabin. They showed it to me. And it was lovely. It was wood. It had a poured cement floor. It had beds. It had mosquito netting, colo lanterns. It was charming. It was like a cottage in Canada. I mean, a rural cottage in Canada. I said, I love this, but you know what? I’ve got my hammock. Can I sling my hammock in your front room, which is reserved typically for men and men greeting men, male visitors?
The back part, which is the kitchen, is where women stay. But I wanted that full experience. And so they conferred amongst themselves in Mopan and they said, but it will still be 10 US dollars for your room and board. And I went, we’re good. We’re good. And I explained why that, you know, their room, the cabin was lovely, but this is what I would prefer. And it just morphed from there.
And then I went to stay with the Lakhandong in Chiapas, and then the group I mentioned, the Ma ‘am in Western Highlands of Guatemala. And I kept extensive journals and drawings and photographs. And then I would actually, from those experiences, as well as going to the major and some…
minor Maya archaeological sites, some of which I’m sure you’ve heard or your viewers would have heard of, Chichen Itza, Tikal, Tulum, Cobah, Copan. Then I would take photos and I would come back to Playa del Carmen in Mexico and Cozumel or San Miguel de Cozumel and the island of Cozumel and give lectures to the travelers. And in Mexico,
They are understandably not keen on having foreigners come down and take jobs from them. I get it. But what they were very keen on is having someone promote the Maya archaeological site so that the tour guides could arrange transportation and guide services. And they would come to the lectures too, you know, so they would be sitting in the back or along the side and I’d introduce them. And so it was a win -win for everybody. And I’ve had several articles about the Maya published in various magazines.
So I’ve done a lot of sort of adventure travel that way and I love traveling yes I do travel with my husband who’s pretty adventurous. We have climbed Kilimanjaro, we trekked in Nepal on the eighth tallest mountain of the world and we trekked around it. We still got up to about 17 ,000. We trekked across Bethan Island in northern Canada, boy, four years ago now, carrying our 55 pound bags, wow, and our own food.
Well, it was great. It was the best hike ever. But I do like to travel alone in the sense that people treat you differently. I they’re still just as nice, but they think, wow, why is this single woman traveling alone? They want to know more and they want to learn about you.
Liz Booker (45:53)
Wow.
Well, all of this adventure is very reminiscent of your mentor who you talk about in the book, Beryl Markham.
Lola Reid Allin (46:18)
Yes, be careful what you wish for. Old Chinese proverb, right, Laozi? Yeah, I admired her greatly. Of course, there were far more books about Amelia Earhart. In fact, during one of my presentations at a school, I was 10 minutes into it and somebody said, when are you going to mention Amelia Earhart?
I was like, right, she is really important and we are indebted to her. But let’s talk about all these other women, not the least of which is Beryl Markham, who yes, absolutely had a fabulously colorful life being raised in Nairobi on a farm near Nairobi with her father, the mother and her younger brother who was not as healthy as Beryl, went back to England and they were farmers. And her life is portrayed briefly in the Robert Redford Beryl Streep film, Out of Africa.
They had to rewrite her character because at the point in 1985, Beryl Markham was still alive. There’s a great documentary about her, Beryl Markham, colon, World Without Walls, fabulous, fabulous documentary. And I mention that in the book as well. But yeah, one of the early people to ditch the double standard. She did what she wanted. She had support. She flew across the Atlantic from East, from London to West, to Canada, to North America on a dare, which is amazing, by a very wealthy British man. She grew up wild, as she described it, with the Kipsegis, a Nilotic tribe similar to the, I’m kind of lusting after another trip to Kenya or Botswana, but Kenya, Tanzania, awesome.
Liz Booker (48:09)
It sounds like a dream and I’d like to go with you, especially with you as a guide since you’ve been there. And we could even stay in Beryl Markham’s little hut that she lived in because they rent that out in Kenya.
Lola Reid Allin (48:13)
Right, right, and Karen Blixons as well in the suburb now called Karen, just outside of Nairobi, which is about a 10 minute drive, but for her, I think was an hour, hour long horse ride, wagon ride.
Liz Booker (48:35)
Well, it was so fascinating. Yeah, and I really, you know, we talked Mary S. Lovell’s book, Straight Until Morning, which gives us the more juicy bits of Barrel’s life in the book club. And I really enjoyed that in the interview with her too. So you mentioned, you know, the fact that everywhere you go, everywhere we go, people know about or want to know about Amelia Earhart.
And I just recorded the third in my aviatrix classic series with Dr. Jackie Boyd and Captain Jenny Beatty, about we finally got to Amelia’s book, but, Amelia is important to us. You know, when you talk about the 99s and being, and how you may have benefited from being part of that community, finding a platform to promote aviation. And I know that you’re involved more than that. So talk a little bit about your involvement. I know that you’re involved in scholarships locally, so tell me about that.
Lola Reid Allin (49:34)
Great. Well, I wanted to give back and I realized I wasn’t likely to get hired even now the eyesight requirement isn’t as stringent as it was. it wasn’t gonna happen. I just didn’t even want to do it actually. I wanted to do this outreach. I joined, many years ago I joined the first Canadian chapter of the 99s and that’s from Toronto and then east to basically the Quebec border.
And as part of that, I’m co -lead with the Education and Outreach Committee. So my co -lead is Mira Bissonnou and we do outreach via Zoom in person to schools, private and public schools, as well as at libraries. But I also wanted to start a some kind of a scholarship and I didn’t want to do that for a while, but I had absolutely no idea how to do it.
So I, who was then the chair, the chair of the first Canadian 99s at that time. Her name is Robin Hadfield and she’s now the international president of the 99s and the first president living in Canada, which is great. And I say living in Canada, she is Canadian, but she is American as well. She has dual citizenship. Anyway, so I approached Robin and she said, you know, of course I’ll help you, absolutely.
This is how, you know, she gave me some suggestions on how to do it, worked with me, and at the end she said, you know, how do you feel about, you know, me contributing the same amount? And I went, that works for me, the more the merrier. So it is a scholarship for a female pilot between the ages of 21 and 34. They have to have a commercial license, in other words, already be vested in aviation.
And it could be for anything, a multi IFR. It’s not a huge grant, but it is increasing every year, which is great. It could be multi IFR, a float rating, an instructor rating. Even if you are already flying commercially, we’re happy to do, know, because you could fly commercially in a float plane, but not have a multi IFR. So then you can get your multi -engine instrument rating. So we’re happy to fund that. And all the presentations I do,
not specifically those related to my Women in Aviation History presentation. I ask for a fee and I donate that fee to the scholarship itself.
Liz Booker (51:57)
Well, that’s wonderful. So thank you so much for what you’re doing to give back to the community. I’m involved in my local 99s in the way that I can and then hopefully contribute to the bigger picture through this project as well. Before I start, we transitioned to maybe talking about how this book came into being and your writing background and those kinds of things.
I wanted to ask, going back to one of the themes of this book, we may have a listener out there who finds herself in a situation like yours where maybe she doesn’t have the support. Well, you had obviously the support at home to go flying, but you were in a relationship that you needed to get out of. Do you have any advice for somebody who finds herself in that situation?
Lola Reid Allin (52:42)
Well, my husband was supportive, but once I got my license, he was still trying to control me, and that was an issue. It was a big issue for me, and it was at that point I said, we’re done, I’m sorry, we’re done. I need to be able to speak for myself. You have no right to speak for me. You have no right to interrupt me when I’m talking. If you want to talk about me, I mean, in a positive way, praise me to others at your work when I’m not around or your friends.
Please do, that’s totally awesome. But if I’m in the middle of a sentence, please don’t interrupt me. That’s very rude. So that was the support I had, and that was the extent of the support. The rest of it was all my determination. I think it would have been a whole lot easier if I had a mentor. But there are mentors, there are role models that you can reach out to. Women in Aviation International has mentorship programs.
The 99s have mentorship programs. Emory Riddle. mean, there lots of educational facilities now that will help you, that will provide some grant or financial assistance because our numbers.
Liz Booker (53:52)
And that goes to the support for flying, but I’m thinking more specifically about women who find themselves in an oppressive relationship that’s maybe holding them back.
Lola Reid Allin (54:01)
I see.
You have to recognize, I mean, if you’re just at the beginning at the cusp of the abuse, you have to recognize the symptoms, you know, or the signs of an abusive relationship that will escalate. You know, if he’s very controlling, if he’s, you know, doesn’t let you talk, if he’s demeaning, these are all signs. And that’s probably a good time to get out now.
Another factor is to have a good job, right? I did have a job, I had money, I did have an education, I graduated high school, I’d already been accepted to university, I could go on to university. So don’t rely on someone else and learn to rely on yourself. And I think that also should breed some support as well. Develop a network, go to your local airport, go to women’s support groups.
You could go, if it’s a substance abuse issue, you can go to Al -Anon or the equivalent for drug abuse programs. You can get support that way. I had a good job. I didn’t rely on my parents to support me or anyone else for encouragement. I had a good job. I had a car. I knew I could do But you do need to take that first step. And it took me a couple years and I kind of…
You know, I kind of dither about it in the book too. You know, I really wanted to leave, but I was pretty sure he was going to be pretty violent when I said, hey, we’re done, too bad. And sure enough, he was violent. But then I had a house to go to, or I had an apartment to go to. had a shelter that I could go to, a safe shelter that I could go to. Make sure your apartment has a security system. Have a network of friends and family or…
friends and family that you can reach out to. If it’s aviation or another career that you’re interested in, go to your local school. There are lots of support networks so you can actually go to helplines. But I think the big thing is be self -reliant. Don’t get yourself in a situation where you have five children. I’m not sure I could have done it if I had five children. One was challenging enough.
Liz Booker (56:05)
Right.
Lola Reid Allin (56:08)
He was a good kid don’t get me wrong, but that was pretty challenging have a good job get a good get an education Go back to school if you need to absolutely but learn to be self -reliant and Because even if your husband is or partner is the most wonderful person in the world things do happen It could be an accident and all of a sudden you’re alone
You need to be self -reliant and I think somehow we’re still raising boys and girls with the idea that yes, the men will definitely, absolutely go out into the world and get a job and be the breadwinner. And yes, a lot of women will do that, but not everyone. And there’s still that culture of, you know, I’ll be home looking after the kids. That’s great, no problem, go for it. But make sure you have a safety net of friends and family or a social work, a social system network that you can count on.
Or you can call me.
Liz Booker (57:08)
Well, before we wrap things up, Lola, did you have anything else you wanted to talk about or share from the book?
Lola Reid Allin (57:15)
I don’t think so. We’ve covered a lot. mean the book itself obviously it talks about aviation. There’s a lot of aviation in it. It talks about my journey and the difficulties I faced from family. One of the biggest things I heard was you’ll be taking jobs from men, which has been around since World War II, when in fact the World War II would have ended very differently if the women hadn’t gone into the workforce to the factories, to aviation factories, to aircraft factories, into just the general workforce, World War II would have ended differently if those women hadn’t freed up those jobs for men to go over to Europe fly in battle.
And yet the service of those women was not only not recognized, it was not recognized for about four decades, six decades, there’s still that attitude that women are taking jobs from men. My own grandfather said it and then immediately apologized. But nevertheless, that was his first thought. And more recently at a 99’s convention, one older 99 approached a recently hired Air Canada pilot, a female Air Canada pilot, and
Instead of congratulating her, she said, know, my son applied for the position that you got. You took his job from him. So we need to change this whole attitude and we need to change how we think about raising little boys and little girls. And we need to raise them to be independent and to think for themselves and to believe in themselves. They can do it. Again, with reservation, like,
I’m never gonna be a ballet dancer. But as long as you can read and write and you can pass an aviation medical, you can learn to fly.
Liz Booker (59:17)
I love it. That’s a great message to finish off on. Remind us when the book is going to be available and where we can find it.
Lola Reid Allin (59:25)
The book is going to be released September 17th, so less than a month from now. I’m pretty excited. You can go to my website, but you can go to simonschuster .ca for those in Canada, simonschuster .com for viewers, amazon .com, Barnes and Noble, bam.
Booksellers everywhere. You can even go to like a local bookseller. If you go to the Simon & Schuster sites, there’s a section, or on my website, there’s a section that says visit your local bookseller, which is great. And you put in your zip code or your poster code, and then the distance, you 100K or 100 miles. And then it’ll come up with a huge list of books where you can pre -order it or you can wait. It’s
as a paperback. And it’s also available on Kindle and Kobo, and it’s available in the UK, America, Canada, and Australia.
Liz Booker (1:00:19)
Awesome. And what’s your website?
Lola Reid Allin (1:00:22)
www.lolareidallin.com.
Liz Booker (1:00:24)
and where can we find you on social media?
Lola Reid Allin (1:00:26)
gosh, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, but I don’t use that as much, but I’m there.
Liz Booker (1:00:33)
Well, Lola, thank you so much for sharing your story. cannot wait to talk about this next year in the book club. will definitely when you look for the 2025 list, it will definitely be on it. And we’ll talk to you again about it. Lola, thank you. Well done and congratulations on the launch of this book.
Lola Reid Allin (1:00:41)
You too.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the interview and always nice chatting with you, Liz.
